“Tommy Leader”: Tom Dalton-Morgan and the 3% UFO solution

In my 1996 book “The OZ Files – the Australian UFO story” I drew attention to Ken Llewellyn’s account of Tom Dalton-Morgan’s UFO sighting at Woomera, in South Australia, which apparently took place in the late 1950s. I also described the story in my Australian chapter in the 2012 book “UFOs and Government – A Historical Inquiry” – “The Australian Military and the Official Government Response.”

 

 

 

From the OZ Files: 

“AN INSIDER REVEALS THE RAAF PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE

 

“It came as a great surprise to many when the RAAF Senior Public Relations Officer in Canberra, Ken Llewellyn, wrote a book called Flight into the Ages, about ‘incredible true stories of airmen on the earth plane and beyond’. The book, released in February 1992, carried the disclaimer that it did not represent the official view of the RAAF on paranormal activities. It described ghost encounters, past lives, psychic experiences, and most interestingly of all, accounts of UFO experiences…

 

“(One) of Ken Llewellyn’s prominent sources was Group Captain Tom Dalton-Morgan. He had been part of a combined Royal Air Force and United States Air Force committee in the late 1940s investigating UFO sightings. It had concluded that most reports could be explained except for 3 per cent. Dalton-Morgan was the Officer in Charge of Range Operations at Woomera between 1959 and 1963. In about the late 1950s, shortly before the test firing of a Black (K)Night rocket, he received a radio call from Percy Hawkins, the Recovery Officer, reporting an exceptional bright light at about 4,500 metres travelling at high speed directly towards the test site, Dalton-Morgan and his team, who were about 140 kilometres south-east of Hawkins’ position, were able to view the incoming light from their elevated control building. They watched it fly in, then orbit around the range buildings some eight kilometres to the south. When the UFO was east of the control building, it seemed to accelerate and climb very steeply away. Dalton-Morgan concluded, ‘I am unable to conceive of any object, plane or missile during my posting to Woomera that was able to perform the manoeuvres seen by my team. Observers at the control tower and the launch site all agreed on the brilliant white-greenish light; the high degree of manoeuvrability, including rate and angle of climb; complete lack of sound; the lack of positive identification of the vehicle fuselage because it was a dark moonless night; and the exceptionally high speed of which it was capable.’

(ex "Fire across the desert")

Clearly Tom Dalton-Morgan’s report was a significant story, and he had a very impressive life.  Here is how the UK Telegraph reported Tom’s passing in their 24 September 2004 issue: “Group Captain Tom Dalton-Morgan, who has died in Australia aged 87 (on 18 September), was one of the RAF's most distinguished Battle of Britain fighter pilots; he later achieved considerable success during the German night attacks on Glasgow before playing a prominent role in co-ordinating fighter operations for the D-Day landings.

“Dalton-Morgan had virtually no experience as a fighter pilot when he was appointed a flight commander of No 43 Squadron - "The Fighting Cocks" - in June 1940. The squadron was flying Hurricanes from Tangmere, near Chichester, and together with others in No 11 Group, bore the brunt of the Luftwaffe attacks.

“He quickly established himself as a fearless leader. On July 12, he shared in the destruction of a Heinkel bomber; but he was forced to bale out the following day when he destroyed another and then was hit by crossfire. With no badges of rank in evidence - he was wearing pyjamas under his flying suit - he was "captured" by a bobby who placed him in the cells along with the German bomber crew he had just shot down.

“Despite being slightly wounded, Dalton-Morgan was soon back in action, accounting for four more enemy aircraft in the next three weeks. In early September, he shot down three Messerschmitt fighters. After one engagement he was wounded in the face and knee, and had to crash-land. His DFC praised him for "displaying great courage when his behaviour in action has been an inspiration to his flight".

“Despite his wounds, Dalton-Morgan returned to take command of the depleted squadron after the death of the CO, and took it to Northumberland to train replacement pilots.

“A descendant of the buccaneer Sir Henry Morgan and the Cromwellian general Sir Thomas Morgan, Thomas Frederick Dalton-Morgan was born on March 23 1917 at Cardiff and educated at Taunton School. He joined the RAF on a short service commission in 1935, and trained as a pilot.

“Following service with No 22 Squadron, flying the Wildebeeste torpedo bomber, he joined the training staff at the Air Ministry. In April 1940 he applied to return to flying, and was appointed to No 43.

“After the Battle of Britain, Dalton-Morgan's primary task was to train new pilots for service with the squadrons in the south. He was also required to establish a night-fighting capability with the Hurricane; a task he achieved with great success. Few enemy night bombers fell victim to single-seat fighter pilots, but Dalton-Morgan, hunting alone, destroyed no fewer than six.

“Three of his victims went down in successive nights on May 6-7 1941, when the Luftwaffe embarked on a major offensive against the Clydesdale ports and Glasgow. On June 8, Dalton-Morgan achieved a remarkable interception when he shot down a Junkers bomber, having made initial contact by spotting its shadow on the moonlit sea. After two more successes at night, he was carrying out a practice interception on July 24 with a fellow pilot when he saw another Junkers.

“Dalton-Morgan gave chase and intercepted it off May Island. Despite his engine failing and fumes filling the cockpit, he attacked the bomber three times. He had just watched it hit the sea when his engine stopped. Too low to bale out, he made a masterly landing on the water, but lost two front teeth when his face hit the gun sight. He clambered into his dinghy before being rescued by the Navy.

“His station commander, Wing Commander H Eeles, commented: "I consider this to be a classic example of how a first-class fighter pilot can attack an enemy while his engine is failing, shoot it down, force land on the sea, and get away with it." Dalton-Morgan was awarded a Bar to his DFC "for his exceptional skill". He scored another night victory on October 2, off Berwick-on-Tweed. Finally, in February 1942, after 18 months in command, the longest spell by any of No 43's wartime commanding officers, Dalton-Morgan was rested, having shot down at least 14 aircraft and damaged others.

“After a spell as a fighter controller at Turnhouse, near Edinburgh, he returned to operations in late 1942 to become leader of the Ibsley Wing. Here he had eight fighter squadrons under him, with the task of mounting long-range offensive sorties over northern France and providing scouts for the tactical bomber squadrons. After damaging an Me 109 in December, he shot down a Focke Wulf 190 fighter and damaged another during a sweep over Brest. He was awarded the DSO in May 1943, which recorded his victories at the time as 17.

“His experience of escort operations led to his being attached to the 4th Fighter Group of the US 8th Air Force, which was just beginning long-range bomber escort work. He flew more than 70 combat sorties with the group. Promoted group captain early in 1944, he served as operations officer with the 2nd Tactical Air Force.

“For a period he worked on an air-to-ground fighter control system with Major John Profumo, whom he rated as the most capable and generous Army officer he had met.

Dalton-Morgan engaged in planning fighter and ground attack operations in support of the campaign in Normandy, then moved to the mainland with his organisation after the invasion. Years after, his CO at the time (later Air Marshal Sir Fred Rosier) commented: "It would be impossible to overstate Tom D-M's importance and influence on the conduct of fighter operations for and beyond D-Day".

“A month before the end of the war in Europe, Dalton-Morgan learned that his only brother, John, who also had the DFC, had been shot down and killed flying a Mosquito. Dalton-Morgan remained in Germany with 2nd Tactical Air Force after the war before attending the RAF Staff College, and becoming a senior instructor at the School of Land/Air Warfare. Later he commanded the Gutersloh Wing, flying Vampire jets, before taking command of RAF Wunsdorf.

“On leaving the service in 1952, Dalton-Morgan joined the UK/Australian Joint Project, at Woomera, where he managed the weapons range for the next 30 years before retiring in Australia.

“He made regular trips home to visit the missile testing range at Aberporth, to see his family and to attend service reunions. He was a vice-president of the Hawker Hurricane Society.

Dalton-Morgan was recognised as one of the RAF's finest fighter leaders. Slightly scarred by his wounds, he had the dashing good looks of the archetypal fighter pilot, and always attracted the greatest admiration from his air and ground crews. In an article on leadership written after the war, one of Dalton-Morgan's former pilots wrote: "He had an awesome charisma; some sort of special aura seemed to surround him. He was the epitome of leadership, he was a born leader."

“He was appointed OBE in 1945 and mentioned in dispatches in 1946, the year President Harry Truman awarded him the US Bronze Star.

“Tom Dalton-Morgan died on September 18, the eve of the annual Battle of Britain Anniversary service at Westminster Abbey, which he had hoped to attend.

“His first marriage in 1939 ended in divorce. In 1952 he married Dee Yeomans who had been widowed during the war. She and their six children, together with a son and daughter from his first marriage, survive him.”

Tom Dalton-Morgan certainly lived up to his biography title: “Tommy Leader”, which writer Clive Williams helped to put together. The book was published in 2007.  Whenever I enquired about the availability of “Tommy Leader”, it seemed it had become a collector’s item, and was valued as a memoir of a “Battle of Britain” air war hero, and was generally very expensive and hard to acquire.  

 

Tom Dalton-Morgan was a significant presence, in his capacity as being in charge of Range Group operations for the UK/Australian Joint Project, as described in Ivan Southall’s popular 1962 book “Woomera.” Tom’s UFO story was not mentioned, even though UFOs got a mention – “the question of the numerous unidentified flying objects alleged by scores of thousands of observers to have been seen in the earth’s atmosphere during past centuries.  These so-called flying saucers either exist or do not exist. There cannot be a half-way house,” wrote Southall, even mentioning his own personal indirect experience, of a “foo-fighter” kind.  “Members of my air crew, from different gun turrets and the astro-dome, observed several dozen unidentified lights over the Bay of Biscay on the night of 10^th-11^thAugust 1944, and kept them under observation for 40 minutes. Our aircraft, Sunderland P/461, was the only machine of Allied or Axis origin in the area, though I did not know it at the time.  As pilot, on a strict patrol, and frankly not anxious to make contact with so numerous a force, I saw nothing.  I was facing in the wrong direction.”  Southall wrote, “Woomera, perhaps better fitted that any other place on earth to observe and track these mysterious manifestations, cannot produce a single item of documentary or photographic evidence to prove that they are real or unreal. Butement (the Australian Department of Supply Chief Scientist) says: “Flying saucers representing something extra-terrestrial are extremely unlikely.  I think we have to look to the earth for the answer.” J.D. (the Principal Officer, Range Group), too, points out that Woomera has been in a unique position to secure the evidence during the period of maximum sightings, but has failed to do so, and not from any desire to turn a blind eye.  The flying-saucer theory has its adherents in Woomera and any one of them would have given a month’s pay to prove it. Among the operators there are a few who have observed puzzling phenomena, but none can state dogmatically that this was a flying –saucer or this was not.”

 

Ivan Southall’s comments in his book “Woomera” (1962) were not reflected in compelling arguments from people like Norm Gerrard of the Radar & Electronic Tracking Group, WRE (Weapons Research Establishment) who was working at Woomera, and whose views were strongly amplified a decade later in a Department of Supply internal memorandum from the Radar and Electronic Group: “Regarding Recent Symposium on UFOs” which discussed a 1971 ANZAAS UFO symposium.  This 3-page internal Department of Supply memo dated 2 December 1971, was written by Gerrard and sent through the Controller Research & Development to (Tom) T.F.C. Lawrence, then Deputy Secretary, Research & Engineering, Department of Supply, in response to Lawrence's enquiry of 25 November 1971.  Gerrard was a veteran of the Department of Supply and in Peter Morton's "Fire across the desert - Woomera & the Anglo-Australian Joint Project 1946-1980" (1989) was described as "a quiet conscientious man who had worked on radio and radar in (V.) Bosher's instrumentation section of Bomb Ballistics Group. He duly spent some months with (F.H.) East (the RAE expert) at RAE (in Britain) and then returned to take over the scientific direction of the VT (variable time) fuze trials (1952-53)." Gerrard emphasised in his memo to Lawrence that the views expressed were his own and not WRE's. He described the ANZAAS UFO symposium held in 1971, the work of some of the scientists, particularly highlighting that of Dr. Michael Duggin, who he described as "probably the leading advocate of serious UFO studies in Australia."  I described Mike Duggin's impressive contributions in my article "The Australian scientist who was a potent part of the UFO "Invisible College" - Dr. Michael Duggin (1937-2016) - a tribute" which appeared in slightly different forms in both the Australian magazine "Ufologist" and the UK e-magazine "UFO Truth".

(ex "Fire Across the Desert")

Norm Gerrard gave a good insight to the views of the scientists present on the subject of UFOs and science and also highlighted the limitations of the symposium.  His own views, while not advocating "a deliberate search for U.F.O.'s", did highlight that he thought "the official Australian investigation should not be as biased as the Department of Air (RAAF) effort appears to be, and I would like to see that effort assisted by more scientists to make careful analyses and correlations of existing reports, looking for similarities which might suggest intelligent control, or purpose, or method of propulsion or communication."  He was apparently unaware of Harry Turner's secret attempt to do precisely this (described to some extent in the JIO & DSTO files) and the fact that Harry himself attended in an undisclosed capacity, while his secret research associate Mike Duggin took the public profile.  Gerrard stressed to Lawrence "that we (should) keep an open mind on U.F.O.'s and would like to see some scientific effort devoted to the investigation of U.F.O. sightings, because it may throw light on the exciting possibility of extra-terrestrial intelligence."

 

Southall’s commentary on UFOs & Woomera would also be greatly challenged by compelling sightings that had already occurred at Woomera, such as Tom Dalton-Morgan’s well witnessed experience from the late 1950s and a striking 1954 radar visual Woomera encounter described to me by nuclear physicist Harry Turner.  He had been involved in the war time pioneer radar research and told me that this radar case impressed him the most in his secret study of the DAFI UFO files and led him to advocate attempts to secure more radar cases. Turner’s classified report on Australian Air Force Intelligence files up to 1954, indicated that radar at the restricted Woomera rocket range facility in South Australia picked up a UFO on May 5th, 1954, when at about 1630 hours 3 witnesses saw a “misty grey disc” at a 355 degree bearing, at some 35 miles, and at an altitude of more than 60,000 feet. The object appeared to have an apparent diameter of about 10 feet. The visual observation which lasted 5 minutes was aided by binoculars. The object travelled south then west, with the radar echo confirming a speed of 3,600 mph! The case, originally classified secret, indicated that the UFO was witnessed by an English Electric scientist and a radar operator. The EE scientist was outside talking to the radar operator when the radar confirmed the presence of a UFO. The scientist watched the object with binoculars. One of his functions at Woomera was to monitor rocket tests. He was experienced in observing movement in the sky. The radar tracked the UFO until it went out of range, however they were able to confirm distance and size. Some tests were being undertaken with a Canberra bomber in flight. The UFO was moving in formation with the Canberra. The Canberra crew could not see the UFO, but both the plane and UFO were confirmed on radar. This was the description of the case he gave to me back in the 1980s. Fortunately the case file has emerged which confirms the account Turner supplied to me. 

 

5 May 1954 Woomera SA approximately 1630hrs 5 minutes 3 witnesses.
Three documents containing statements by the two key men involved and a covering letter forwarding the statements, from the Superintendent Long Range Weapons Establishment Range, Woomera, to the “Chief Superintendent”, which stated “The persons reporting were separated by a distance of approximately three hundred yards and give corroborative accounts of what each observed.”

 

A statement dated 6 May 1954, indicated, RE: “UNIDENTIFIED TARGET OBSERVED ON RADAR 5TH MAY, 1954
Sir,
At about 1600 on 5th May, an unidentified Target was observed on radar AA Number 4 Mk. 6.
The target appeared on High Beam at a range of about 60,000 yards Bearing 355degrees approaching ‘R’, described a Hyperbols (sic) over ‘R’ and went out at a bearing of approx. 90 degrees. On its way out it passed behind Spotting Tower, “S2”. I timed it over 15,000 yards 10 seconds which would make its speed approximately 3600 M.P.H.  KEANE observed this occurrence with me. Since the target was followed to 70,000 yards on High Beam the height would be greater than 60,000 feet.”

The remaining statement (7 May 1954), “Vickers-Armstrong” stated: 

“REPORT ON A FLYING OBJECT SIGHTED ON 5TH MAY, 1954
I was at Range R1 (Post R1), the Radar Post, standing by the Security Officer’s Hut, and looking towards the radar Post at approximately 1645 hours, observing one of our trials through binoculars.
This object appeared to be travelling towards me or directly across a path of the approaching Canberra (aircraft). When it got to the path of the Canberra it turned to my right and was going in the direction from which the Canberra had just come.

 

“When it got directly over the Canberra it slowed down. During this time, I found it very hard to believe what I was seeing, so I shut my eyes and then looked again through the binoculars and the object was still stationary over the flight path of the Canberra. Since it appeared to be the same relative size as the Canberra through the binoculars, I thought it would be possible to see it with the naked eye. However, when I looked over the top of the binoculars the object had either gone or I could not see it with the naked eye, and when I looked again through the binoculars I could not pick it up.  The object appeared to be travelling about three times as fast as the Canberra, but of course it is impossible to estimate, since I did not know what height it was. It was perfectly circular all the time and a dark grey colour, and gave the appearance of being translucent. It did not glisten at all when it turned or was it shiny.” 

 

Given Harry Turner’s experience in early radar development in wartime Australia, it is clear why he was impressed with the May 1954 radar visual case at Woomera.

 

I was approached recently by the grandson of Tom Dalton-Morgan, Rhys Dalton-Morgan, who was trying to get more information about him, and his apparent UFO involvement. Rhys has had a difficult time navigating both British and Australian military archives, with only very limited information being gathered.  I recommended he contact Dr. David Clarke who had undertaken outstanding research into the early days of official British UFO research.

Dr David Clarke's recent exploration 

of the early secret days of UK UFO investigations

(Fortean Times, Issue 445)

 

Rhys contacted David indicating,“I just wanted to introduce myself. I’m the grandson of a Battle of Britain Ace, Group Captain Tom Dalton-Morgan or Thomas Fredrick Dalton-Morgan. I was given your name by Bill Chalker. I live in Sydney, Australia and have been doing some research into him of late. I requested his file from the national archives in the UK, but they told me they don’t have it or it hasn’t been transferred from the ministry of defence yet. I’ve had similar issues with the national archives and department of defence in Australia and the US. While doing my own research, I recently discovered a chapter from his history that has been completely unknown to the family. Apparently he had been apart of a joint RAF and USAF committee in the late 1940’s investigating UFO’s. 

Now my grandfather was a private person and very matter of fact. But as time has gone after he passed, it has been discovered that he has an interesting history, much he never spoke of. From being a secret “Ghost” pilot in the US 8th Air Force, to being a participant in the formation of the Western Union Defence Organisation, to then managing the Woomera Rocket Range in Australia for the Weapons Research Establishment for 30 years.
A lot is not known about him. 

I was wondering if you might have any information or resources I may be able to follow up to find out more about his history. Do you also know anything about this joint RAF and USAF committee in the late 1940ʼs investigating UFOʼs. 

Cheers, Rhys 

Dear Rhys, 
Thank you for your email regarding your grandfather and his interest in UFOs.
 As you have spoken to Bill Chalker, I guess you must be aware of the account published in Ken Lewelyn's 1991 book Flight into the Ages? This refers to Tom Dalton-Morgan's UFO sighting at the Woomera rocket range in the late 1950s? 
Lewelyn's account also refers to the 'joint RAF and USAF committee' that investigated UFOs in the 1940s, from information provided by your grandfather. 
I have checked my files and found that I interviewed your grandfather by phone on 4 November 2002. Unfortunately, I did not record this so I have only brief shorthand notes... I recall he was about to leave for a trip to Australia at the time and I have his address noted as Jasmine Cottage, Wendover.
 The notes cover his Woomera experience and generally confirm the account in Lewelyn's book. He said it was reported to both RAAF HQ and to London - but he heard nothing back.
 Not surprised that you have had little success at The National Archives. Virtually all the MoD/Air Ministry files on UFOs covering the period 1949-1961 were destroyed, so no chance of tracing original documentation.
 Your grandfather, in the interview, did confirm that he served on a joint US/UK committee that investigated UFOs in the 1940s and 50s... and that he had asked to be on it (he did not explain why) - it included both military and civilian pilots. All he could remember was that all the sightings they were asked to examine were resolved except 3% 'which were unknown' I have not been able to find any trace of this 'committee' apart from the existence of a MoD 'Flying Saucer Working Party' that existed circa 1950-51 and produced a report that is in the archives DEFE 44/119 see: https://drdavidclarke.co.uk/national-archives-ufo-files-7/flying-saucer-working-party/
and
https://drdavidclarke.co.uk/radar-uaps/mod-dsi-jtic-report-no-7-unidentified-flying-objects-1951/
 The FSWP was terminated in 1951 but continued in 1952 under Professor RV Jones when responsibility for UFOs was transferred to the Air Ministry.
 The FSWP certainly liaised with USAF Intelligence and CIA on UFOs and CIA were present when the report was completed and circulated in London.
This maybe the committee your grandfather refers to? 
If so I suspect if any further evidence is in existence, it will be held by the US National Archives either Project Grudge or Project Bluebook.
Hoping this is useful.
 Have you discovered anything else? 
bests

Dr David Clarke
Tweets: @shuclarke
Website: http://www.drdavidclarke.co.uk/ Blog: https://drclarke.substack.com/

I thanked David for assisting Rhys.  

 

Fortunately, Rhys had a copy of Tom’s biographical book “Tommy Leader” and confirmed that it included an account of his Woomera UFO experience.

 

Here is Tom Dalton-Morgan’s account from the book “Tommy Leader":

 

“One night at Woomera when we were setting up to launch a Black Knight vehicle there was a most unusual incident.  I was in the Control Room talking to Alan Mole who was setting up for the countdown to launch.  A call came for me over the intercom from Percy Hawkins, our Recovery Officer, who was down range near the expected impact areas of the Black Knight and launch vehicles.  He reported a very bright light that was heading towards the Range head.  I stepped out on to the balcony of Test Control building followed by Alan Mole and others.

                     (ex "Fire across the Desert" (via "Flight" magazine and Mrs. E.A. Wren)

(ex "Fire across the Desert")

“Sure enough we soon picked up a very bright light heading at high speed towards the Rangehead.  It appeared to be at about 5,000 ft.  As it orbited around us, we could see what appeared to be a circular outline of the vehicle.  A cabin protruded from the top of the vehicle, it was brightly lit and showed up the circular outline of the vehicle.  As it passed behind us it accelerated and climbed away, almost vertically, to the East and disappeared.  No sound came from it.  The apparent circular shape of the vehicle, its speed, rate and angle of climb were beyond that of known aircraft of the time.  Our Rangehead radar failed to pick it up.  I reported the incident immediately to RAAF HQ in Canberra to RAAF Base Edinburgh and to Defence Research Establishments.  It was seen by our Recovery Team down range and by at least six of us at the Rangehead.  I would say that it was one of the three percent of such sightings that could not be easily explained away.”

 

(ex Wikipedia)

(1958 launch of a Black Knight rocket ex Pathe)
 

From the references such as “Fire Across the Desert”, “Woomera”, C.H. Hill’s “A Vertical Empire – History of the British Rocket Programme” (2012), and Wikipedia’s Black Knight entry, and the information we currently have on the Tom Dalton-Morgan Woomera UFO report, it would appear the date of the sighting would come from 5 possible Black Knight Woomera launches, namely 7 September 1958, and 12 March, 11 June, 29 June and 30 October 1959.  Ken Llewelyn in his book “Flight into the Ages” reflects, “It was a very sensitive time, with missiles being cleared for nuclear capability …. Tom cannot recall the exact date of the incident, and the official report is now buried in Defence Department archives, but it is one of great interest …. High security surrounded the firing of the Black (K)Night because it was specifically designed to test the fusing system for a nuclear bomb and to obtain data on the radar signatures of an incoming nose cone, somewhat similar to a nuclear warhead.”  Such security issues, one would think would not be an issue that would effect release of files more than 60 years later, but its seems such issues run into deep time. Rhys Dalton-Morgan advised me on 24 June 2024, “The Defence Department or Information Access Unit specifically have come back to me today and said no records on Tom could be located. I know that's nonsense because I've spoken with the national archives on the phone, who can see on their end DST have released files on Tom then taken them back.”  We hope, with persistence, progress may be made on the release of Tom Dalton-Morgan’s file, which may also answer many questions and provide more detailed information about Tom’s sighting. 

 

So there we have it, “Tommy Leader: Tom Dalton-Morgan and the 3% UFO solution”, determined by his time on a joint US/UK committee that investigated UFOs in the 1940s and 50s, an apparent fore-runner of the 1950-51 MOD Flying Saucer Working Party, and his own well witnessed late 1950s UFO sighting at Woomera in Australia, just prior to a Black Knight launch. Somebody’s “Big Science” checking out our “Big Science” out there, down Woomera way, something seemingly beyond our abilities, perhaps something of a non human intelligence.  Tom Dalton-Morgan certainly thought it wasn’t one of ours.