Forbidden Science 7 Final Report – The Journals of Jacques Vallee 2020 – 2025: A skewed review by Bill Chalker

Forbidden Science 7  Final Report – The Journals of Jacques Vallee 2020 – 2025

Tree witnesses in and out of Jacques Vallee’s Forbidden Science odyssey –

A very timely return focus on UFO/UAP physical evidence

A skewed review by Bill Chalker

One of the great pleasures of reading Jacques Vallee’s Forbidden Science journals is seeing a life ignited by the great mysteries, and appealingly for many, focused on what seems to have developed into “the great game” of UFOs (or UAPs). “The great game” was more traditionally a term used by scholars, explorers and others as the West’s often ugly colonial battle for control and tribute of the East.

Vallee’s record preserved in largely decade long volumes, bookended by the first (formerly “Forbidden Science Volume One: Journals 1957 – 1969” morphing to Forbidden Science 1, or for brevity FS 1) and by June 2026, what seems to be the last, “Forbidden Science 7 – Final Report – The Journals of Jacques Vallee 2020 – 2025” are ongoing tilts at “the great (UFO/UAP) game.”  So many fascinating fragments of information, laden with all sorts of compartmentalised claims and counter claims, lots of potential insights, and many heavy hidden hands at play, with a fragmented band of players, sometimes united, sometimes collegial, generally giving service to developing a clearer and more publicly articulated and informed accounting of what “the great (UFO) game” is really about.  Breakouts and more traditional researchers fight to get a more coherent history and picture of “the phenomenon”, but now the heavy hand of monetisation and potential exploitation for ‘breakthrough development”, often directed towards military application seems increasingly in play.

Vallee invokes Colin Wilson for inspiration for the FS Journal’s purpose (FS7: 357) “I continue to keep this diary of my observations, hesitations, and occasional insights instead of waiting to pen a ponderous memoir full of lies, as most men do, from Carl Jung to masters of politics or industry and their hired pens.”  Despite that, throughout FS7 there is a lot of interesting data and potent insights, with a steady and understandable focus on what happened with his significant project – Capella – the attempt to produce a viable and useful massive UFO data base, telegraphed in a deep and profound way back in FS 5. 

From my review of that volume:

“Much of Vallee’s AAWSAP involvement focused on the initial development of the Capella Data Warehouse, but he fears, “In one year, they will have hundreds of thousands of entries in incompatible formats, and it will be another sinking cathedral.  So I made my recommendations, turned over my final report and my handwritten notes from our 1988 trip to Colares (see Vallee’s excellent book “Confrontations” (1990) and FS 3 (1980-1989) for further insights into the Brazilian investigations), and kept my peace.  Much of my time now is devoted to Janine’s care, I told Bob (Bigelow), and I can’t take any additional assignment within BAASS (27 February 2009: 5, 476).” Vallee could see the six databases assembled by April 2009 would need “a massive statistical re-calibration and quality control effort, but I doubt if anyone realizes the need for this, so inebriated are they with the hundreds of thousands of entries we have inside those computers, potentially a source of big errors, mere shadows in cyberspace if we don’t compile the difficult screens.” (5, 483).  It is clear that Vallee was pessimistic. “Privately, I see BAASS following the same trajectory as Dr. Hynek’s CUFOS under Al(I)an Hendry in the 70s, when they started checking cases carefully and found that much of the “evidence” disappeared under serious scrutiny.” (5, 485)   Allan Hendry’s excellent contribution “The UFO Handbook” (1979) emerged from this CUFOS milieu.  Vallee highlights, “BAASS is running a vacuum cleaner over the field of international ufology and falls into the trap about which the wise Major Murphy warned me, ending up with 95% of the information … but missing the five percent that really matter.” (26 April 2009: 5, 485-486)   Invoking “Major Murphy” in 2009 seems a bit playful, when the December 1980 paperback edition of “Messengers of Deception – UFO Contacts and Cults” reveals “there is no Major Murphy.  I invented him … a fictional character … and patterned him on several real individuals I had met and interviewed during my research.”  Still one gets the point that any database needs to have carefully scrubbed and evaluated data, a critical lesson, that all of the more recent new ventures seeking to use AI and various UFO/UAP data bases need to take on board.  The spectre of the old computer adage – garbage in, garbage out – looms large here, and Jacques Vallee is in an excellent position to push the message of quality control in the data.

 “This is really a dream come true for many of us,” stated Jacques Vallee some 5 years later  in his preface for his presentation of his research paper “Unidentified Aerial Phenomena – A strategy for research,” at an important workshop focusing on the scientific examination of UAP UFO observations held at CNES (French equivalent to NASA) headquarters in Paris on 8-9 July 2014. It proved to be an important step in the long road of developing a viable UAP UFO science. The GEIPAN workshop in PARIS – CAIPAN – Collecte et Analyses des Informations sur les Phenomenes Aerospatiaux Non Indentifies – “allow the exchange of methods, tools and experiences between people with practical, specific knowledge in the analysis of rare and unpredictable phenomena, whether natural or artificial (unidentified aerospace phenomena, lightning, fireballs, etc)”.  Vallee’s CAIPAN paper abstract indicates, “After years of ideological arguments based on anecdotal data the field of UAP research appears ready to emerge into a more mature phase of reliable study. Renewed scientific interest now exists in many countries, based on credible official or semi-official documents. Without pre-judging the origin and nature of the phenomena, a range of opportunities arise for investigation, hard data analysis and new theoretical exploration. In order to avoid repeating past errors, however, such projects need to generate new hypotheses and test them in a rigorous way against the accumulated reports of thousands of observers.”  

“Unfortunately such a repository of reliable global data does not yet exist (and he was including Capella – BC). Furthermore, the level of difficulty in assembling it has either been ignored or underestimated. The purpose of this paper is to briefly review previous work in the compilation of UAP databases and outline some new directions for research. We also raise the question of identifying researchable issues and consistent ontologies in the UAP domain. 

“With respect to the last point, the challenges of data collection and analysis over a limited territory are illustrated by a longitudinal study of 167 screened UAP observations performed by researcher Jean-François Boëdec in the département of Finistère between 1950 and 1981. His study shows how such focused investigations could be extended to perform a regional or even national assessment of the patterns behind the phenomenon.” 

Back to FS7, the disposition & possible exploitation of the Capella database (outside of his control, by military, intelligence, aerospace or commercial ventures) is an understandable preoccupation throughout this volume covering the half decade from 2020 to 2025.  We learn he is continuing to quietly work on his own strategies for an improved database.

 Despite these battles and intrigues some fascinating matters are given prominence.  The “Gilbert” saga is one of these, where a “top psychic” “remote viewer” – “Gilbert” - had a military sanctioned communication with a “volunteering” tall “alien” in some sort of containment or protection shell, at an undisclosed facility.  As I read that part I could not help but think about the closing scene of Spielberg’s “Disclosure Day” (2026) movie.  Of course, this led to a scramble to find out who “Gilbert” was.  Answers might lie in the military remote viewing Stargate archives of Edwin May, donated to the Rice University Archives of the Impossible, ably curated by Dr. Jeffrey Kripal.  This archive is the grist for the new AMC series Archive X.  I’ve seen the first few episodes – fascinating stuff, but nothing so far informing us of who “Gilbert” might be.  Psychic remote reviewers like Joe McMoneagle, Ken Bell and others have been suggested. Vallee indicates his fairly bound by “Gilbert” who apparently is aiming to publish on this fascinating story.

I also found Vallee’s efforts at gathering UFO stories from the Pacific region interesting and worthwhile.  There is much there to contemplate.

I was pleased to see myself mentioned (FS7: 291): “the most knowledgeable researcher in Australia and an accomplished Australian blogger” (the latter being my own ad hoc journaling to myself, but out there for general readership.  See theozfiles.blogspot.com ) Fellow Australian researcher Keith Basterfield is described as “a diligent researcher” (FS7: 26), I saw him as one of best UFO /UAP analysts, although he has had to put his efforts on hold. See ufos-scientificresearch.blogspot.com   Still throughout the 7 FS volumes Vallee rarely engages with the Australian UFO/UAP experience. At least, Keith, myself and the rest of the Australian UFO community, both past and present, have provided deep dives on that front. I have good reasons to feel that trend may continue.

For me personally, given my own long-time focus on UFO physical evidence, I was particularly pleased to see Vallee highlight the extensive and drawn-out investigations and research that was undertaken into the December 1966 Haynesville Louisiana, USA, case, that he had drawn to Dr. Allen Hynek’s attention, given the credentials of the primary witness, atomic physicist Professor Louie Galloway.  Vallee was able to steer the case, subsequent investigations, and discovered aspects that were not found by the original US Air Force Investigations and the controversial Condon committee report which carried it as an “unknown”.

I highly recommend the peer reviewed paper that Jacques Vallee collaborated on which was published in a special issue of the journal Progress in Aerospace in  2025, along with other UFO/UAP focused research articles – a very important achievement in legitimizing serious mainstream scientific research into the UFO (UAP) subject.

Here is the abstract (summary) of this important contribution

“Estimates of radiative energy values in ground-level observations of an unidentified aerial phenomenon: New physical data”

by Jacques Valllee, Luc Dini & Geoffrey Mestchersky

“An exceptional observation of an anomalous object, recorded as ‘unidentified’ by the US Air Force and in the1969 final report of the University of Colorado (“Condon”) study of UAPs, has been re-examined by a Franco- American scientific team. The observation took place on the evening of December 30, 1966, on an isolated highway traversing a forest near Haynesville, Louisiana. Early in 1967 the main witness, a professor of atomic physics named Louie A. Galloway, reported the case to Project Blue Book of the USAF. Pro-active investigation by one of the authors (JV) brought it to the attention of Professor Edward Condon, himself a noted atomist who had worked under Project Manhattan. Dr. Condon and his team had just begun an official re-examination of UFO (UAP) phenomena under funding of the US Air Force. The case, which centered on a well-defined luminous object at ground level, led to energy estimates from 500 to 1400 MW, in the range of a small modern nuclear power plant. Significantly, it was one of a number of cases carried as ‘Unidentified’ in Dr. Condon’s final report to the National Academy of Sciences in 1969. Subsequent to that Academy report, significant work was continued at the site by civilian investigators who confirmed the data, augmented by night photography flights. The team returned to the area with the primary witness, located the exact place of observation and gathered new data, notably about the nature of burns evidenced on the trees, which had not been available to Dr. Condon and his assistants. Samples of the burned and intact bark were obtained by our own team, and they were preserved until it became possible to properly analyze the material. The burn analysis data presented here was obtained at the laboratories of the French Atomic Energy Commission in Saclay, France. We present our results with the understanding that the study will benefit from further discussion within the larger scientific community.”

I hot footed over to Macquarie University here in Sydney, to get access to the Journal issue as soon as it became available.  I encourage you to seek out this paper and the others in the Progress in Aerospace Sciences journal special UAP/UFO issue. Here is its formal citation:

Jacques F. Vallée et al., Progress in Aerospace Sciences, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.paerosci.2025.101098\

Towards the close of FS7 Vallee discusses the SOL-3 conference at Baveno, Lake Maggiore, Italy, where he once again he was spotlighting the December 1966 Haynesville case – a superfine way to end a rich 70-year legacy “of nearly continuous writing, note-taking, occasional lapses of judgement, habitual reflection, and intellectual engagement.  It is a logbook of sorts, a repository of fractional achievements and a record of travels in search of wisdom to be borrowed, or hard truths to be learned, from other earth-dwellers and the minds beyond.” (FS7, 474)

I’ve chosen to deliberately limit this review of Jacques Vallee’s FS7, otherwise my heavily annotated copy would precipitate (chemical or alchemical talk) a massive opus, by way of review of this striking and affecting tome.  Get it, consume it, debate it and above all else use it as a springboard for a deep dive into the fascinating waters of Vallee’s Forbidden Science odyssey. 

Now before closing this review, outside the FS lens I’ll draw more attention to evidence of the tree barking kind.

The Haynesville Louisiana USA case occurred on 30 December 1966. Just over a month earlier on 22 November 1966, in Roaring River State Park, Missouri, USA, an impressive UFO/UAP physical trace occurred.  It was the case that drew Ted into a long research relationship and friendship with Dr. J. Allen Hynek. A witness from the case was known to his brother-in-law and by early 1968 he had conducted a phone interview with the witness. As the episode involved physical effects and UFO photos, he contacted Dr. Hynek.  Hynek came to lecture at the University of Missouri in Columbia in October 1968, and a meeting with the witness was arranged, so Dr. Hynek could examine the photos and negatives.  In November Ted and his wife Ginger were invited to Chicago. Ted was invited to become a part of Hynek’s “invisible college” – a small collective of researchers. Ted agreed to specialise in “physical trace” cases. Ted specialisation was a very productive research venture. 

Ted Phillips & Allen Hynek at a UFO trace site

Given that the Roaring River State Park case of 1966 was the catalyst I will quote Ted Phillips own report:

“On November 22, 1966, B & several friends were deer hunting near the Roaring River State Park, in southwestern Missouri. 

“They had been away from their camp site for about one hour. J B talked with a friend who had just passed by the camp & he stated that everything seemed to be normal at that time. 30 minutes later, between 09:00 & 10:00, B was returning to the camp site. When he was about 100 yards from the camp he noticed a faint column of smoke. He ran to the area & found the tent smoldering. He could see no flames or sparks, a pair of leather shoes & some records were still smoking. He could feel no great heat coming from the remains. In 30 minutes the tent & equipment had been destroyed. He noticed a dead tree about 15 feet from the tent which was burning at the top, it was about 15 feet tall. 

“He photographed the tree showing the burning top section after seeing the UFO. The tent was 12 x 18 feet in size. The aluminum poles supporting the tent were singed, but not burned, aluminum cots inside were melted. 

“The tent was under two trees & they were not damaged at all. 

From Ted Phillips/CUFOS

 “As he was looking through the remains he heard a low humming sound & saw an object rising from a valley just beyond the tent area. When the object was first seen it was just above the horizon, it was at that time that the first photograph was taken. The second photograph was taken seconds later as the object began to gain speed & climb. 

“As the object climbed & gained speed the humming sound seemed to become more intense. The sighting lasted perhaps 20 seconds. When last seen the object was moving toward the northwest & was some 40 degrees above the horizon. B could see what appeared to be a dark band or rim around the center of the object. The UFO was aluminum in color & reflected the diffused sunlight. An antenna is visible at the top of the rear section. “The object was stable during flight. After the object disappeared the observer paced the distance from the point of observation to the area where it had ascended, the distance was about 300 feet. He estimated the diameter at 25 feet, with a thickness of 8 feet. About 15 minutes after the object disappeared, two F-104's flew over the area at very low altitude, they made one pass, flying toward the southeast. These aircraft were also seen by others in the area. 45 minutes after the incident, a single engine aircraft flew over the area from the northeast toward the southwest, it was not a military aircraft. The fire resulted in about $600.00 damage to the tent & equipment, B claimed.

“B stated that he always carried a camera around his neck while hunting in hopes of photographing a deer. The camera used was an Argoflex 620 twin lens. The main lens is an Argus Coated Verex, 75 mm f/4.5 Anastigmat. Shutter speeds from time to 1/200 second. Apertures f/4.5. f/6.3, f/9, f/12.7, f/18. Witness stated that he probably used a shutter speed of 1/50 second & an aperture of f/8 (which would be f/9). If the camera was focused at infinity (he said, he usually left the focus there in case he should see a deer & could grab a quick photo) the depth of field would be 41' to infinity. 

“The witness let Allen take the negatives to Northwestern University where it was examined & appeared to be normal in every respect. 

“Astronomical Data: Sun transit at 11h59 m, Az 149d, Alt 26d11 m N.
Weather Data: High scattered clouds, mostly thin, wind NNW at 5 to 10 mph, temperature at 1000 was 37d.” 

It was indeed a fascinating and compelling case and the beginnings a decades long focus on UFO “physical trace” cases for Ted Phillips.

If any of the physically damaged items, like tree bark and camping material actually survives in the CUFOS & Ted Phillips files, they might prove to be a potentially strong supplement to the recent work done in the Haynesville case.

When I came to live in Sydney in 1975, after 4 years completely and honours science degree, majoring in chemistry and mathematics, I was asked to join the committee of the UFO Investigation Centre by its co-ordinator David Buching. Given my experience in “physical trace cases” and my university background in chemistry David passed onto me a publication that had recently come into their hands. It was the 1975 Center for UFO Studies publication compiled by Ted Phillips – “Physical Traces associated with UFO Sightings.”  It listed 561 cases.  Its Australian listings were limited and I set about focusing on cases of this type in Australia.  In 1979 I presented a study of 237 accounts of Australian “physical traces.”  I included that study and expanded on it for a worldwide review of such data, which was published in a 15 paged chapter – “Physical Traces” – in the 1987 book “UFOs 1947 – 1987 The 40-year search for an explanation” compiled and edited by Hilary Evidence with John Spencer. 

 

I would later see Ted turning to hunting UFOs in the field by way of trying to carefully evaluate if UFOs had a propensity to focus on specific localities, namely localised UFO flap areas, or UFO “hot zones.” Back in October 1975 I was presenting a paper to a UFO conference – UFOCON 1 in Terrigal, New South Wales (NSW): “The UFO Flap – a context for scientific study”, which built on my field work on the Dorrigo plateau in northern NSW, mainly at Tyringham-Dundurrabin and Kempsey during the early 1970s.

It was 1999 that Ted Phillips started investigating what he would call the “Marley Woods”, an area located in Oregon County, in the south of Missouri.  It became the subject of an extended study of what seemed a localised flap area – a UFO “hot zone” – it even had “physical traces.”

In my 1987 physical trace review I wrote, “The physical trace found in the wake of a UFO landing at striking UFO “physical trace” cases seem rare these days, but they do occur. When they do occur, we should try to document them as best as we can.”

The following & final case of the burnt wood bark kind I’ll describe here was one I was personally involved with.  It had its frustrations, but it had a richness of physical evidence.

The incident occurred at about 4 am on February 29th, 2008, at Coogee, a seaside Sydney suburb. A man walking down a street, observed a flash of light. In that direction he saw a large spherical shaped object sitting on the street T intersection. He could see a little man in a window at the top of object. The witness became frightened, retreating behind a large electrical signal box. The being appeared to move a lever, a “shutter” came down over the window area, and the object took off at tremendous speed at about a 45-degree angle. The bitumen road surface appeared to have a white circle effect left behind and at least one nearby tree appeared to have been burnt. The witness reported noticing heat coming from the object. The duration of the incident was about 5 minutes. The road surface was repaired soon after by local council road maintenance crew as the road is a very busy route mainly during the day. I met the witness on March 19th. I first visited the site on the night of March 19th and revisited the area on several occasions since then. I have samples of the burnt tree bark. Calibration samples would also be available.  I was also advised that soon after the incident a new electricity telegraph pole was placed at the intersection and repair work was undertaken on the electrical wiring connections. I was unable to establish if these matters are related to the February 29th event.  

Witness sketch superimposed on Coogee location photo 

(Bill Chalker, UFOIC)

Bill Chalker at the Coogee site - note the road repair spot

The witness is a shy man of nervous disposition and seems unlikely to be the type that would make up a story of a UFO incident and does not appear to have much knowledge of the UFO subject. I was therefore very struck by the similarity of the Coogee witness’s description and drawings to two overseas cases – Cussac, France (August 29, 1967) and Goffstown, New Hampshire, USA (November 2, 1973). The Goffstown NH 1973 encounter also occurred around 4 a.m.

Cussac 1967

Goffstown 1973

Having bits of bark, and trees as “witnesses” to UFO/UAP events is a fascinating endorsement of the utility of closely examining the rich legacy of related physical trace events, past, present and future, something I’ve advocated for decades – something I’ve been doing for decades.

Thank you, Jacques Vallee for your Forbidden Science Journals FS 1-7 and your rich legacy of reporting and study of the UFO/UAP. 

Return to Tully – the famous Flying Saucer nest and its legacy (1966 – 2026)

Return to Tully – the famous Flying Saucer nest and its legacy (1966 – 2026)

Bill Chalker

1966 has always held a special place of significance for me. While it defined the tentative beginnings of my own interest in the UFO subject, it was the UFO phenomenon itself that strikingly marked the year. 1966 was a watershed year both in Australia and abroad, but most of all, it was a remarkable touchstone for the argument in support of a UFO reality. The year saw in Australia some remarkable cases that argued powerfully that there was an actual UFO reality – there was something real and tangible in our skies and it was landing amongst us!

(created for me by friend Paul Cropper)

The 2026 Australian UFO Festival at Cardwell, near Tully, in northern Queensland, held 7-9 August, organised by Cardwell local Thea Ormonde (a wonder worker) allowed me to return to Horseshoe Lagoon, ground central for the extraordinary events of the Tully UFO milieu.  It also allowed me to spend a lot of time with Shane Pennisi who was just a young boy back in 1966, caught up in the UFO drama that descended on his father’s farm.  Shane gave an excellent talk on the impact of the events.  I was honoured to give a supportive lecture on my attempts to document and understand what went on. Anthony and Trevor Goodall, and others are also trying to get a deeper recognition of the locality and its impact.

My 2026 lecture at Cardwell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1btCBsbXtc&t=357s

Thea Ormonde, podcast MC Triffon Peart, & the Goodall team (Anthony & Trevor) 

with the beautiful Cardwell views behind them

Anthony Goodall captured this Saturday night festival party shot of me 

in an "Interview with the Alien" moment,

trying to do an unofficial "Alien Census"

Shane Pennisi & Bill Chalker on a tractor heading down to Horseshoe Lagoon

on Thursday, 6 August, 2026 (Photo by Anthony Goodall)

The Horseshoe Lagoon "Tully Nest" site on the day I revisited it

6 August, 2026 (photo by Anthony Goodall)

(courtesy of Anthony Goodall)

Bill, friend Ian Maclean and Shane Pennisi at the Pennisi home on 9 August, 2026

Shane Pennisi at the C-Files Forum on Friday 7 August, 2026

with MC Alex Oliver

Bill Chalker at the C-Forum on Friday 7 August 2026

What played out at Horseshoe Lagoon on the sugar cane farming property of Albert Pennisi on the morning of January 19, 1966, was an extraordinarily potent testament to the case for a UFO reality. The term “saucer nest” entered “UFO lore” and left its indelible mark in the history of the UFO mystery. The famous Tully “UFO nest” affair of 1966 is one of the best-known accounts of an apparent UFO landing report.

1966 was a major year for UFO activity in Australia. The classic UFO landing at Horseshoe Lagoon near Tully, far north Queensland, and witnessed by 28-year-old banana farmer George Pedley, and the activity that followed ensured the locality was the centre of an extended UFO milieu that continued for many years, particularly in 1969, 1972 and 1975. The area was also the site of controversial experiments in UFO detection through remote sensing and filming.

George Pedley, banana farmer (ex eulogy photo)

                                      George Pedley & his Ferguson tractor (ex eulogy photo)

                               

The Tully incident has been mentioned extensively in the UFO literature over the years, and yet surprisingly many inaccuracies and misconceptions have developed. These problems became more critical when the famous incident once again became the focus of attention, this time due to the English “crop circle” controversy. The prominent schools of thought on the crop circle formations adopted the 1966 Tully incident as a classic example of their perceived explanations for the circle complexes. Their claims about the relevance of the Tully incident as the progenitor or a classic example of the currently perceived crop circle phenomenon were flawed and generally unfounded. Doug and Dave, the notorious “circle” hoaxers, also cited the Tully incident as the inspiration of their crop circle creation escapades. Instead of being an example of a wind vortex effect, “spaceship” landing site, the result of occult paranormal forces, “plasma vortex” evidence or hoaxed “saucer nest”, the Pedley “nest” is a remarkable example of a UFO physical trace case. The choice of “UFO” is deliberate in that an unidentified phenomenon was apparently involved.

A definitive explanation currently eludes us. Like all remarkable events it is important to understand the context that the January 19, 1966, occurred in. It is a fascinating story that touches on the wider and far stranger nature of UFO reality.

The central focus of the Tully “UFO nest” story is Horseshoe Lagoon on Albert Pennisi’s property near Euramo about 8 kilometres south of the Tully township. The lagoon and Albert’s property are on the strip of flat coastal plan. Tully itself is nestled between Mount Tyson (674 metres) to the immediate northwest and Mount Mackay (724 metres) a little further to the east.

It is from the peak of Mount Tyson that something spawned the aboriginal legends of the Chic-ah-Bunnah. The peak is recorded as the “landing place” of Chic-ah-Bunnah. Gladys Henry records the striking tradition in her 1967 book on aboriginal folk tales “Girroo Gurrll: the First Surveyor and Other Aboriginal Legends”: “The Chic-Ah-Bunnah was a spirit in the shape of a man and was always sighted rushing through the air. He emitted a strange blue light and was blinding to look upon. When he took off from the earth there was a frightening bang and a roaring rushing noise. He ate glowing red coals and only came to earth at certain places. The three known places in the area were Goodarlah Hill on the Murray River, the large rock at the back or western side of the crest of Mt. Tyson (Mt. Bulleroo) and another rock, away up the Davidson Valley. The creature was frightful to behold and had a long, hideous nose. Kitty Chilburrah was said to have seen one personally while on Palm Island, and the local witness, a little girl named Jaa-Jin-oo (the little eel), claims to have seen one in the last few years. There is no evidence of the chic ah-Bunnah having done anyone harm. He merely instilled a great fear in the hearts of the beholders.”

                                                             From Gladys Henry's 1967 book

Jack Muriata, a respected Girrigun tribal elder, described an encounter with the Chic-ah-Bunnah, he experienced way back in 1932, when he was a 9-year-old playing one moonless night with friends on the banks of the Tully River. Jack told his story to Frances Whiting who included the tale in a story on the Tully UFO saga that appeared in the Queensland newspaper “The Sunday Mail” 20 January 2002: “Our mothers and grandmothers used to tell us not to go too far from camp in case the Devil Man came calling. Devil men, we Aboriginals call them, or chic ah bunnahs. White people call them UFOs, and if you get caught by one, our grandmothers told us, you will die. “One night I was with my friends, and we wandered too far from our camp to the river. We were playing in the dunes when this great big ball of light, so bright, you have never seen such a light, came flying down from the sky above us. It lit up the whole river, and then it zoomed down low along the banks, like it was looking for us. “My friends were yelling, ‘Run! Run!’ and we all took off as fast as we could back towards camp and our mothers. “You don’t want to get caught by the devil man.” Another early UFO report came from near Euramo, the closest village to Horseshoe Lagoon. In September 1959, Max Menzel was driving a tractor when he spotted “a brilliant, large, conical craft, approximately 30 feet long”, which seemed to be hovering over the top of sugar cane, just 100 feet away. A nearby house was illuminated in a vivid red and orange light. There was a proliferation of sightings through 1965, including an apparent nighttime landing on the slopes of Mount Mackay on November 29th.

Activity surged for months in the wake of Pedley’s experience. The Tully district seemed to be haunted by UFOs. One of the most prolific sources of UFO stories from the Tully area was local witness Claire Noble. She had reported on the extensive activity that preceded the famous Pedley sighting of January 1966. The response to Claire Noble’s reports of UFOs up until January 1966 drew mixed responses from locals.

Albert Pennisi in an interview conducted on site by Mike Williams

in May 2005

Albert Pennisi had been farming in the area since 1947 and knew something of the local stories and was inclined to believe the observations that Claire Noble and others were making in the months leading up to January 19, 1966. Besides he was himself was troubled by haunting UFO related dreams. For a rugged farmer, having such dreams was problem enough, so he kept this to himself. George Pedley was known to be a quiet, hard worker. None of the locals had anything against him, even those who did not believe in his sighting. He said to journalists, “Had anyone asked me five days ago if I believed in flying saucers I’d have laughed and thought they were nuts. But now I know better.”

The strange and perplexing element of precognitive dreams in the Tully UFO saga emerged early in the intense media coverage given to George Pedley’s close encounter with UFO rising out of Horseshoe Lagoon. “Sun- Herald” journalist John Dickson quoted Pedley in the January 23, 1966, edition about Albert’s dream: “He believed me straight away and told me he had been dreaming for a week that a flying saucer would land on his property.” “He said that about 5.50 am on Wednesday (the morning of the discovery of the original nest) his dog suddenly went mad and bounded off towards the lagoon.” Albert elaborated on these dreams in an interview with the Sydney newspaper “The Sun” on January 24, 1966. He was quoted by journalist Ben Davie:

“I’d get them almost every night. And they were beginning to worry me. I couldn’t understand them. It was always the same. This thing like a giant dish would come out of nowhere and land nearby. And I would watch it in my dream and get real afraid before it went away. Then on Wednesday morning about 5 o’clock my dog suddenly seemed to go out of its mind. It was howling like a mad thing and raced off towards the lagoon.”

Albert reluctantly confirmed this strange element to me, but he was not alone with suggestions of paranormal happenings. More than a decade later, according to information I received, at nearby Murray Upper, a similar situation apparently unfolded. A young woman was woken up by her father apparently because he thought the house was on fire. There was a huge orange glow outside. They tried to wake up other family members without success. Fear started to overcome them, and they ran down the hallway of the house away from the light. Their next recollection was that they both woke up the next morning extremely puzzled by what seemed to be a bizarre, shared dream. Over breakfast they heard radio reports of UFO sightings. They then realised their “memories” were not dreams. A circular area of flatten sugar cane was found near the house. I subsequently spoke with the young woman. While she only confirmed these events in a vague sort of way she did have a history that many would consider to be a classic UFO abductee. I even spoke to her father, but he did not confirm the experience and was not keen to elaborate further. Ultimately, I could not fully confirm the validity of this part of the events.

These stranger elements to UFO experiences do happen but are usually only reluctantly shared. Maybe Albert thought this aspect diminished the credibility of the Pedley encounter and the other UFO events, but the physical certainty of the “UFO nest” far outweighed such concerns.

The RAAF files describe the famous Tully incident in the following manner: “At about 9.00 a.m. on 19th January, 1966, Mr. G.A. Pedley, a banana grower of Tully, Qld, observed a light grey non reflecting dull object, reported to be about 25 feet long and 8 feet deep, rise vertically then climb on an angle of 450 from a height of about 30 feet above marshland which was situated about 25 yards away from his position. There was an associated hissing noise which decreased as the ‘object’ rose. The apparent shape was described as ‘two saucers, face to face’, but no structural detail was observed. The duration of the observation was approximately 15 seconds, and it disappeared in mid air whilst receding into the distance (not assessed).

“A clearly defined near circular depression remained in evidence in swamp grass at the point from which the object was seen rising, and measured about 32 feet long by 25 feet wide. The grass was flattened in clockwise curves to water level within the circle and the reeds had been uprooted from the mud. There was no scorching of grass or surrounding trees and the observer stated that there was no smell of combustion...” George Pedley reported his experience to Tully Police at 7.30 pm, on January 19th. At 7 am, January 20th George Pedley and Sgt. A.V. Moylan went to the site of the incident. Sgt. Moylan, then contacted Townsville RAAF Base by telephone, on the morning of January 20th. Flt. Lt. Wallace advised Sgt. Moylan that he would forward a proforma questionaire for completion by George Pedley. On Friday, January 21st, Flt. Lt. Wallace confirmed despatch of two copies of the sighting proforma by mail that same day and also requested Sgt. Moylan obtain “a sample of the grass from the scorched area.” At 3.30 pm, on the same day, Moylan returned to the site and took a sample “of the grass from the depression in the swamp grass at the site.” The proforma was filled out by Moylan based on his interviews with George Pedley and was dated 26/1/66. Sgt. Moylan despatched the report and the sample on 26/1/66. Flt. Lt. T.D. Wright, for Air Officer Commanding, Headquarters Operational Command, RAAF, Penrith, New South Wales (NSW), on-forwarded police Sgt. Moylan’s report on George Pedley’s UFO sighting and Flt. Lt. Wallace’s covering minute paper, to the Department of Air, Russell Offices, Canberra. His communication classified RESTRICTED, which was channelled to the Directorate of Air Force Intelligence (DAFI), also indicated, “This headquarters believes that the depressions of the swamp grass were caused by small isolated waterspouts.”

The RAAF’s suggested explanation doesn’t stand up to the facts. In the Tully incident we are dealing with water-laden reeds, a fast moving “object” and an apparent lack of absent reeds from the lagoon. In other words, the RAAF’s suggestion of a Willy Willy “vortex” of reeds from the lagoon cannot be sustained.

Albert Pennisi recollected that the investigating RAAF officer returned to the site years later and confessed he was “wacked” (puzzled) by the 1966 episode. He had been sent to check Pennisi out and found him to be very honest. He even checked his service records and was ultimately intrigued by what went on.

Both Albert and George were astounded by the nest when they first examined it in detail. Neither had ever seen anything like this before, despite being experienced bushmen. Albert Pennisi “knew” his lagoon and a circular effect like this was totally unprecedented in his experience. They waded out to the floating mass and found that it was possible to swim from either side under the mass. The water was clear of any obstructions and the lagoon floor beneath it was smooth and clear of any roots.

Albert and George were most struck by a particular feature of the surface of the floating reed bed - what seemed to be a clear “print” or impression of the UFO. The outer perimeter of the floating mass was thrust down markedly as if indented by a massive, inverted saucer shape, with a circular centre about 6 to 8 feet in diameter. Albert rushed to his house and returned with a camera taking a series of photos. By then the upper surfaces of the reeds on top of the “nest” had turned brown. The underside of the reeds remained green. This browning had occurred by late afternoon, some 8 hours after the sighting by George Pedley. About 6 feet to the north of the “nest” a rectangular patch of the swamp couch grass, approximately 5 by 6 feet had been clipped at water level and pulled out completely. George Pedley apparently noticed this initially with his original observation of the circular area.

A further interesting anomaly was found by Christine Rounland, whose husband helped Pedley with crop fertilising. She came across some ground marking that resembled curious tracks in loose ploughed soil of an adjoining paddock between Pedley’s banana palms. They led from the direction of the lagoon area and extended a short distance into the ploughed field. They were shaped like a tear drop, pointed on one end and rounded at the other. Each were about 3 to 4 inches in length and about 2 inches across at their widest point. They were spaced out at about 12-inch intervals and in a straight line.

Subsequent underwater checks indicated 3 large holes in the muddy floor of the lagoon beneath the Pedley nest. Whether these were there at the time of the sighting could not be absolutely proven, but to some they suggested the possibility of tripod land indentations.

George Pedley also reported later that he noticed the presence of a “sulphur” smell in the area around the nest, just after the UFO had departed.

While only the “nest” associated with George Pedley’s sighting had an explicit connection with a UFO close encounter, other “nests” were found in quick succession in Horseshoe Lagoon. While intriguing none of the subsequent finds were as compelling as the original “nest”. The area became the focus of ongoing “nest” phenomena and indeed Tully became known as the UFO capital of Australia.

Tully had long been known as the locality with one of the highest regular rain falls in Australia. The period of Pedley’s encounter fell within the “wet” season, namely January to February. Usually this takes the form of heavy to drizzling rain. Hence it is easy to see why weather phenomena were deemed a possible explanation. However, the facts do not lend themselves to this convenient answer. Strong winds during this “wet season” usually occur when cyclones are present. Pedley’s encounter occurred during calm fine weather. The prevailing weather for the area in the 24 hours preceding the incident was not conducive for the formation of local windstorms. Locals are familiar with wind damage, even those involving small scale vortices. These usually feature rougher and messy grass coverage disturbance and evidence of debris and trails in the immediate locality. None of this was evident.

When the news of George Pedley’s encounter and the “nest” started to spread coverage through the media proliferated. It was front page news. All sorts of theories abounded for the “nest”. Helicopters, nesting birds (“Big Bird”?), crocodiles, dogs, secret military devices, “spaceships”, reed eating grubs, willy willy and whirlwinds were amongst the many ideas trotted out.

There was some confusion regarding the direction of the nest spiral, which persisted in various accounts over the years. The Pedley “nest” had a clockwise swirl. This aspect at least ruled out one explanation. The Brisbane paper, “The Courier Mail”, of January 25th, 1966, stated, “RAAF officials discounted the theory that “nests” have been made by helicopters. The RAAF said that in depressions left by helicopters the grass usually ran in an anti-clockwise direction - the main nest found at Tully ran in a clockwise direction.” Alf Macdonald, the Stock Routes Inspector for Northern Queensland, who had lived in the area since 1933, thought the wind vortex theory was unlikely. He said that the district had not had strong whirlwind and indicated that they left a path anyway. George Pedley also commented, “I’ve seen wet whirlwinds and dust whirlwinds. If the police believe this, let them. I know what I saw. It wasn’t a whirlwind.” The Victorian Flying Saucer Research Society (now VUFORS) published an excellent item, “The Tully ‘nests’: How freakish can whirlwinds be?” which concluded that “the atmospheric vortex hypothesis” was untenable, despite cyclonic rotation in the southern hemisphere being clockwise. Large scale vortex weather systems such as cyclones and whirlwinds largely have their rotation determined by the Coriolis Effect, but local factors can negate these tendencies, particularly in smaller vortex systems such as “willy willies”.

I had spoken to Albert Pennisi and George Pedley on several occasions over the years and was always impressed with their accounts. George was generally reluctant to talk widely about his experience. Albert would speak about it but kept speculation largely to himself. It happened and the proof was evident in the “nests”.

Albert, assisted by his sons Adrian and Shane, publicly lectured about the events for the first and last time in October 2006 at a UFO conference in Brisbane. I was there and was pleased to catch up with him again. For me his talk was the highlight of the conference. It also brought back great memories of wading through Horseshoe Lagoon back in the early 1970s. It seemed it might have been young Shane Pennisi who told me to watch out for taipans – something I might have wanted to be alerted to before rather than after! I fondly recollected.

Albert passed away on 25th January 2009 three days short of his 90th birthday. Albert was a simple man who, despite a rough start, forged a good life and family, who tried to help people, and was the real quiet achiever.

Shane Pennisi told me that Albert refused to change Horseshoe Lagoon.  Shane was close to his father and did his best to keep it that way. By 2026, it was clear to Shane that it was time face the difficult task of moving on. It seems he may have found a buyer who wants to keep Horseshoe Lagoon in the same way.

Albert was in touch with nature and tried to keep the property that way. Shane shares his father’s take on the land and lamented that given the changes to the area through drainage and other farming practices, as well as more housing appearing, the locality that held so much sway in 1966 is not as isolated and quite as it was back then.

Progress and development intervened but at least the lagoon still stands as a testament to Albert’s way and to that remarkable moment back in 1966, and the suggestions via more nests over the following decades that the UFOs might have landed many times since. Albert’s “dream” and George Pedley’s daylight encounter with the UFO rising out of the lagoon are marvellous manifestations of the strange UFO reality that haunts many places around the world.

UFOs and related strange phenomena seemingly haunted the Tully area for a very long time indeed. It got very real in a physical way back in 1966 and for a long time since then. I am grateful for the opportunity to have returned to Tully and join Shane in trying to preserve the haunting Tully UFO legacy.

Thank you, Albert, for sharing the experience of the “dream” and its real impact, the UFO physical trace legacy, which haunted the Tully region for so long. According to Shane, his father seemed to always sing while working the farm, but maybe it was the alien siren songs of the UFO that left its marks – the “saucer nests” – that were part of the song lines of his life. The torch was passed to his son Shane, who has done so under difficult and changing circumstances.  Now, should the unlikely happen and Albert’s “dream” machine returns, the thing witnessed by George Pedley back in January 1966, if further “nests” are found and more UFOs are seen, there will still be those who will bear witness and there will be those who will try to actively seek answers.

Albert Pennisi with his sons Shane & Adrian 

at the 2006 anniversary UFO Research (Qld) conference 

Such is the legacy of the Tully UFO milieu. The 1966 Tully UFO physical trace case still stands as a classic example of the impressive physical dimensions of the UFO phenomenon and the extraordinary impact it has had.

The Harry Turner 1971 JIO document - a reality check

The Harry Turner 1971 JIO document - a reality check

Unpacking the 1971 Australian JIO UFO Document with Bill Chalker

(Extensive documents & illustrations will be added next week, so return to this post for further details)

Here I have created an edited version of a podcast interview I did with Melbourne based Grant Lavac on his excellent show - The Unexplained Rundown. On his show you get a regular update on UFO UAP matters with a strong Australian focus. Excellent stuff and I recommend you check it out and subscribe.

The Harry Turner circa 1971 Joint Intelligence Organisation (JIO) UFO document represents an excellent review of the clandestine and hidden side of military intelligence and aerospace interest in UFOs.  The document has been somewhat misinterpreted, and even described as explicit evidence of the "legacy" (UFO crash retrieval) program.  I have felt that a clearer picture of the document should be offered to respond to these misrepresentations and misunderstanding. Beyond that, it is an incredibly important document revealing an extraordinary insight into a shadowy world few of us get to see and understand. I was lucky to be able to get to know Harry Turner before he passed, and I received much of his personal files.

Harry Turner & Bill Chalker

I recommend you examine the material I have written about Harry Turner and his legacy:

https://theozfiles.blogspot.com/search?q=%22Harry+Turner%22

Here is the link to Grant Lavac’s The Unexplained Rundown interview with me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD2Is-PjMhI&t=50s

What follows is my edited transcript of the above interview:

Grant Lavac:

In this episode of The Unexplained Rundown, we talk with veteran Australian UFO researcher Bill Chalker about the 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organisation minute paper on UFOs...and its author, Harry Turner. This document has been publicly referenced on numerous occasions by David Grusch, Karl Nell, Jesse Michels, and Eric Weinstein. It was even included in the third tranche of released UFO files by the US Department of Defense. But the broader context around the genesis of this document - and the hard source material its author, Harry Turner, relied on - has rarely been discussed in public. Bill has comprehensively reported on Harry Turner’s work and interviewed him at length before his passing. If there is anyone better positioned to opine on Turner's minute paper and provide this crucial historical context...it's Bill. 

Friends, welcome back to another episode of the unexplained rundown. I'm your host, Grant Lavac. 

I've been wanting to have a chat with this gentleman, get him back on the podcast for quite a while. I think it's been almost three years since I had a good chat with Bill on the podcast. So tonight we are talking about the 1971 Joint Intelligence Organization Minute Paper, the document on UFOs that's been referenced quite a bit frequently, certainly recently by David Grush, by others, Jesse Michaels, Eric Weinstein, Karl Nell.  It has certainly been doing the rounds … quite a bit as of late and it's not a new document. It's been around for quite some time … and there's no one better positioned to unpack this document for us and provide some context, some good background information, maybe highlight some of the misconceptions around this document. 

So, no one better than Bill Chalker to break it all down for us. And if you're living under a rock and you have not heard of Bill Chalker before, allow me to give you a brief introduction.

So, Bill is one of Australia's, if not the world's leading UFO researchers, also a field investigator based in Sydney. Is widely recognized for his scientific approach to anomalous phenomena, blending his background in chemistry with rigorous archival and forensic investigation. He has also authored countless articles, one in particular for New Dawn magazine. He did a great article, a couple years back, on Harry Turner - part of the subject matter that we're covering this evening.

Obviously he has also authored an incredibly comprehensive chapter on the Australian military and the official government response in a book titled UFOs and government, a Historical Inquiry. I haven't read the book. I've read Bill's chapter on it. Fascinating.  Actuallynow keen to get my hands on the book and read it to to see what else has been happening over the decades in other parts of the world with respect to this this topic. Bill has also authored a number of books including the Oz Files which I think is a rarity these days. So, you might find a copy on Amazon for a hefty fee being a collector's item. Now, he's also authored Hair of the Alien and UFO History Keys. And if you haven't checked out Bill's blog, The Oz Files, I've put the link in the description below. You can check it out. Specifically, all of the blog articles that Bill has done on Harry Turner. So you can just click on the link and it will take you to all of the articles that he's done on Harry Turner who's obviously heavily featured in the discussion this evening.

So I would just certainly encourage you to have a look at the the blog. Some great great articles and some great historical information on the topic and an absolute wealth of information. So like I said, it's been almost three years since we had Bill on the podcast. So, it's a true pleasure to welcome him back to the show.

And obviously, we are talking tonight about Harry Turner's 1971 Joint Intelligence Organization Minute Paper. That's Harry in his heyday. And you had the good fortune of meeting Harry and talking with him comprehensively before his passing. So perhaps for before we get into it specifically his document, perhaps you can provide for the benefit of the audience that's not really aware of Harry's work and … how you came to know of him and eventually sit down with him and talk with him. Can you give us a bit of a breakdown on on Harry briefly and and how you came into contact with him? 

Yes, between 1982 and 84 over about four different visits, I spent quite a bit of time going to Canberra and looking at the Defence UFO files, mainly RAAF files at the time. And I was interested in trying to get a continuity of files and cover it all from at least the 50s right through to the 1980s and one name in particular came up both in the early 1950s and then later in the late 60s early 70s and that was Harry Turner and turns out he was in a couple of different roles over that period from the 1950s. He ended up during World War II, because of wartime and his familiarity and training, in early radar, which they called at that time radio location. He had a rapid run through a university degree PhD in terms of what was regarded as the Bailey's school of military applications of radar - early radar and it became quite famous that that school there's a photo that shows Harry sitting down with one of mainly Air Force people, a number of army people, what was all designed to give a crash course in radio location, that kind of thing, and radar. So he had quite a extensive knowledge on radar and that comes in good stead when later on he starts to look at some of the the RAAF UFO files and the one case that attracted his attention was the radar visual case over Woomera that occurred in 1954 - quite a spectacular case and so that's essentially how I encountered him, just by seeing his name in the files to begin with. I then wrote off to Air Force Intelligence, ASIO and a few other parties, Joint intelligence organization, trying to locate the whereabouts of Harry Turner. And after a while I get this handwritten letter back from Harry, or actually initially I got a letter from his former boss Bob Mathams, who was essentially head of what was called the DSTI within JIB. That's the director of scientific and technical intelligence of the JIB which became the JIO and subsequently now it's sort of pretty much within the umbrella of the Defence Intelligence organization.

You always get a lot of acronyms in this game and so many it's unbelievable. But essentially I was looking at him from the time when he was liaising with DAFI which stands for directorate of air force intelligence and until in latter days got access to the files in his position when he was with with the joint intelligence bureau JIO.  But in the early days back in the 1950s, he had established, I think a three-pronged approach to looking at flying saucers and there was a huge UFO wave. One of the biggest UFO waves in Australia and indeed in other parts of the world was during 1954. But he was also looking at it from as early as 1948. And so he was quite well-versed with the subject. But most of it was private interest and he was sort of at the stage of when he made contact with the Royal Australian Force (RAAF) Department of Defence, he was at Melbourne University in their physics department and he was also conducting inquiries with the local civilian group that existed at that time in 1954. Now this wasn't the Victorian Flying Saucer Society Research Society, and it was essentially a organization called the Victorian Flying Saucer Investigation Committee. There were a few members of that group that went on to become members of VFSRS in latter days. Now VUFORS, unfortunately is now pretty much non-existent although I think there were obviously some historical presence with it and it was quite a well-established group. So Harry was doing his own inquiries, doing inquiries through the Victorian Flying Source Investigation Committee and also reached out to Air Force Intelligence, but he he had already had a pretty high security clearance, particularly with his work with radio location during the Second World War. 

So, his timing to contact others couldn't have been better, because basically, Air Force intelligence was being hauled over the coals to come up with some answers as to what the bloody hell was with all these flying saucer reports that were inundating particularly Victoria at the time and other places in Australia, but mainly it was mainly a Victorian centred wave during 1954 except the classic radar visual case didn't come into any prominence with him until much later. This is the case of Seamus Farrell, the Sea Fury pilot from Nowra Naval Station that occurred actually in late August of 1954. But the minister of the day really didn't get any intensive kind of interrogation by the the media until December 1954. So there's a lot of accounts around on the web you'll find that will date the Sea Fury case as occurring in December 1954 but it actually occurred at the end of August 1954 and that got quite a detailed response. It was also the subject, as it turned out, a subject of the Joint Intelligence Bureau which was only more or less just established and the first scientific analyst was a chap by the name of Bob Mathams or Robert Mathams and he's the one that I actually corresponded with during the early 1980s and he had become later Harry Turner's direct boss in the Joint Intelligence Bureau, Joint Intelligence Organization. He mentioned to me that they never really determined what they would do with reports of UFOs if they confirmed that they are extraterrestrial. They were targeting UFO flying saucer type cases that might have been Russian hardware, Chinese hardware (or not really Chinese hardware - a bit early for them) but mainly foreign adversarial type hardware and that's what they're interested in and he said we hadn't really defined a policy.  So it's it's surprising that in some ways that they had that interest early on.  But because Bob Mathams was the only scientific analyst that they had back at that time in about 1956-57 they just didn't have the resources.

He did it for about a year then sort of opted out I think for personal reasons then came back into it and then became the head of DSTI, the director of scientific and technical intelligence and they started to get more and more analysts and then, but the problem with Harry was that because of his coursework and stuff like that and his university degree that he also got in WA and also the supplementary radio-location degrees and all that kind of stuff at Sydney Sydney University, he was regarded as a hell of an asset, particularly on the nuclear side of things. 

So that's when they they shipped him off to Harwell in Britain to be of some assistance in terms of the Maralinga situation when the Brits got permission, helpfully from our prime minister of the day Robert Menzies, to let off a whole bunch of atomic bombs on Australian soil. You know, really impressive work that, but not something that anybody alive at that time would have appreciated really, but no, it was a different time - everybody wanted to support the British government, all that kind of thing, and so it was kind of follow the Brits you know, follow the mother country, that kind of thing …. So Menzies said sure you can let off atomic bombs in the middle of Australia if you like and and we've got also Montebello off the Western Australian coast. That was the first of them in 1952. And so there was a lot of certainly nuclear activity going on in Australia. And it's striking that there was in 1952 also a major UFO flap year in various locations including South Australia and Queensland and New South Wales, Victoria, Western Australia.

There were reports coming from all around the country essentially, but but not in huge numbers. But the really big wave as I mentioned earlier was 1954 – a very big wave. But for Harry the timing was right and they (DAFI) welcomed him with open arms. Well, he made the overture first. He wanted to see, you know, what do they have, about their files? And they were somewhat pleased to have him making that inquiry because they they were being hauled over the coals to come up with some answers about flying saucers. And so they vetted him, confirmed that he security clearance and then they wanted to give him a car and everything to assist in investigations and wanted him to review the existing files that they had. He decided he wanted to be independent at that point in time. And so he declined the use of the car, that kind of thing. But they did share the files with him and he started doing this detailed analysis of the DAFI files. The one case that he really focused on big time up to that point and we're talking essentially June July of 1954, so the Sea Fury case from Nowra hadn't occurred, but one of the cases that had occurred was the case over Woomera and that was a pretty impressive case. 

And so was it Harry had reached out to you as a result of your inquiries and is that how you developed some back and forth correspondence?

Yes … it was just a short written letter from Harry. He had retired by then and had moved up to near the north coast NSW/Queensland border… I think I think he was kind of pleased that I made contact with him. We had numerous phone conversations and all that kind of stuff and exchanges on that basis. But then finally meeting him …. we had a chance to have a fairly direct discussion… 

There was a lot of material that Harry had supplied me in these private visits… I essentially got a lot of those original files and a lot of those that material I could see was what made up the actual report that has become the subject of a lot of attention in more recent years.

It was all in a bit of an ad hoc form and what it revealed was that from the time that he joined the joint intelligence bureau and its subsequent reincarnations, he was fairly persistent in trying to get the Joint Intelligence Bureau to examine the flying saucer subject.

But that was not his brief. His job was he was the head of the nuclear science section of the DSTI.

The director of Scientific and Technical Intelligence within the JIB and later the JIO and his boss Bob Mathams was trying to get Harry to get away from flying saucers, you know, get focused. Bob Mathams told me directly and wrote and said, well, I knew I could never dissuade Harry from actually examining flying saucers. So, if the work gets done on the main focus, and that is nuclear intelligence and all that kind of stuff, then fine that he would put up with it.

This figures into the situation with the perspective that a lot of overseas researchers, and some of our own here, are taking on that 1971 document, that it's presented as an official file. Well, it's not.

Well, it is in fact that it exists in the joint intelligence organization file and it's on letterhead.

Yes, that's right. But it it's not an official view. It was never an official view. It was Harry's view.

Yes. Understood.

And he was trying to convince a lot of players to become consistent with that view. And he had a lot of support, very high level support. A number of the different chief of defence scientists were supporters of the whole concept. 

I don't think he ever discussed with me the idea of something like Roswell or crash retrieval cases. He was mainly focused on rapid intervention. The kind of thing that I was trying to advocate as well, like being able to get to a location when there's an actual UFO event on or particularly a physical trace case where there's physical evidence left behind. And he actually got it to a stage where the air force was agreeable up to a point and they were going to allow an aircraft a jet aircraft to be on standby in the event of a close encounter before it occurring and physical traces. That's how far it got. 

That was 1969 when the rapid intervention team was almost put into play and it had people like George Barlow (who was a later deputy head of the DSTI) and also people like (chief Defence scientist) John Farrands and the preceding chief defence scientist … but they were all in and wanted to be involved. But then probably the person that was dragging the chain a bit was the director of air force intelligence. He personally had a hatred of UFOs. He did not want his own people to be examining the UFO subject. And so he did his best to try and downplay the whole UFO subject.  Air Force Intelligence was happy to transfer transfer all the files over to the Joint Intelligence Bureau back in the the late 50s if they wanted it, but they didn't want to get involved with it because they saw it as a kind of a controversial thing that would bring them into the public eye and the JIB and it successors did not want to be in the public eye. 

Right. So it sounds like it was killed because because there was this individual had a bit of a a personal disdain for the topic and was there was a fear of a reputational risk.

It still existed for quite a while. It was going to be coming about it seemed and then there was a major wave in a number of parts of Australia but the one that got Harry drawn into it was the one that occurred in Western Australia mainly around Perth and the Air Force intelligence people within DAFI who were there were were be being besieged by UFO reports and it it occupied about a third of their actual time. And the problem was that there was a lack of support for Air Force intelligence officers. So they even had to drive their own vehicles to investigate flying saucer sightings if they decided to investigate one. And the Perth RAAF people put out a call they had heard that this rapid intervention team was being brought together. It wasn't quite together and so essentially Harry Harry Turner went across in his own right to to Perth to do some investigations and he shared a lot of that investigation with me. 

The key case that interested him the most was at Coverdale near the airport.  There was a radar visual case. Given his background back in the 50s with radar location and radar he he had recommended back in 54 that we should focus on radar cases and physical evidence type cases. But they basically ignored his report in 1954 even though he said that a number of the cases seem to involve possibly extraterrestrial craft. He completed that report on the ship going to England, to go to Harwell for more preparatory work for the the nuclear activity that was going to occur in Australia. There was a lot of pre-planning going on. Montebello was not an ideal location. 

The conclusions in this document, you know, it says if if one assumes that these intelligence reports are authentic, then the evidence presented is such that it is difficult to assume any interpretation other than that unidentified flying objects are being observed.

But unfortunately Harry as a good scientist decided with these findings there he felt there were not enough cases in the DAFI files that were of unknowns and so he wanted to to compare it and do a correlation with a bigger selection of data and he got that mainly from cases that were listed in one of Donald Keyhoe's early books, I think it would have been the “Flying Saucers from outer space” because at the back it had summaries of a lot of interesting unexplained cases from the early days of US Air Force investigation. And Turner recommended that they in fact get in touch with the Americans to confirm the data that Donald Keyhoe had been given to verify its reality. And unfortunately at the time the United States Air Force were caught up in a bit of a conflict with Donald Keyhoe. They were kind of characterising him as a science fiction author and was basically unreliable. That was in fact incorrect that he in fact had been given all these unexplained cases by the media guy with the US Air Force and that would be Albert Chop. He even wrote a letter on the back of of the American edition of the book. So he confirmed it. There was never any doubt that he got these cases from US Air Force and that they were unexplained at the time. Yeah. And so but the problem was the US Air Force were conducting this bit of warfare against Donald Keyhoe and that enabled our own Defence people who contacted the US attaché and our own people in Washington and they came back with the then current interpretation of Donald Keyhoe's work saying it was all false and it was he was not to be trusted and that undermined at the time Harry's 1954 report.  Because he had compared to the US data and so they used that as a convenient way essentially to ignore his recommendations which were to focus on radar cases, that kind of thing. 

What a shame. What a sincere shame. Well, look, let's maybe use that as an opportunity to transition now into the actual 1971 document because it is a fascinating one and it's an important historical document. But what a lot of people may not know those that aren't as maybe well versed on the topic as we are that Harry Turner's 1971 Joint Intelligence Organisation minute paper is actually included in the Department of War's latest third release. If we just jump into it's a CIA listing but its basically dated 1971 Australian Review of the United States Air Force Project Blue Book. This document was released by the National Archives of Australia. Now what's you and I have talked about this Bill, but you know is a bit frustrating or you know a bit eyebrow raising is that if we look at the actual document in detail … They've just lifted it directly out of the National Archives of Australia.

There's no analysis provided by the CIA on that report. 

And one of the things Harry wouldn't talk to me about was stuff that was classified, but he was pretty open with a lot of the stuff. He did say that they were investigating it and there was a focus on anti-gravity and that kind of thing. But I guess he had his hands tied basically in many ways. He he had several trips to the United States meeting with the CIA and all that kind of thing. And as it turned out with the classic 1952 wave, he had only one of his own associates who was based at at Woomera and that was Colonel John Durance who was the commander of the range. Um, and as it turns out, he was visiting the United States during June and July of 1952 and actually was invited in to the radar room on both weekends of the Washington DC radar sightings. 

Wow.

And so Turner had the opportunity to talk to Durance. He said more or less they were just across the table talking to each other about it and he said that Durance was absolutely certain that this was not anything man-made that it was real and it was phenomenal. He thought it was extraordinary and it that was the catalyst I think for a lot of the focus within the US Air Force to start to examine the the concept of anti-gravity. Now Harry's reaction as a physicist was well we need to get our understanding of gravity in order first before we start talking about anti-gravity and so gravity was a problem we don't fully understand it. 

I should explain too that it was Keith Basterfield that got these files out of the government and got them into the National Archives (of Australia) and organized the the digitization and that's the only reason you're able to actually read it by going to the (Australian) archives. All due credit to Keith there. Kudos to Keith. 

You've spoken to the man himself that authored the report, but you've also seen a lot of the supporting other documentation that Harry authored and one of the strategies that Harry used to try and get an interest going at a high level within the JIO was to focus on what could be perceived as weaponry.  

You don't see it in the file that's in the Trump dump. It's essentially a second part which exists in our archives. Where Harry looks at Passport to Magonia Jacque’s catalogue of cases. Now, unfortunately, the British publisher Neville Spearman chose not to include the catalogue of a thousand cases or thereabouts.

But Harry's already got copies of the American edition and in the original American publication, the catalogue is at the back, but it's not in the British edition that we poor Australians would get. We would have had imported ourselves an American copy.

That catalogue was extremely valuable because it highlighted a whole range of data of cases mainly UFO landing cases but also cases where beings were reported in contact with the landing cases and using what appear to be like rods to paralyse people, that kind of thing. And Vallee also included car stop type cases as well. Electromagnetic type car cases.

So I guess Bill the question is what are your thoughts on the characterisation of Harry Turner's document there based on what you've seen?

Yes, the only problem really I have with the characterisation of from those commentators is that that it wasn't a formal government document. It was a collection of material put together in a special folder by the JIB recorded for historical purposes so that they could have a collection of relatively informed material about flying saucers.

And the main guy was of course Harry Turner that provided all of that. But the reality in the day was that he wasn't getting much traction with that report when he brought it to the attention of the director of JIB. Well his own boss Bob Mathams and the head of the joint intelligence organisation at the time. None of them were that keen to pursue it simply because they were under resourced. They felt that the United States government had more resources, more money, and that they could do a better job at focusing on it. So, they they took a backseat to it and tended to downplay Harry's report. And so it's it's actually quite surprising given that background of the contemporary problem or the reception that Harry received which was not that positive to have it turning up as an historical document with the JIB and now preserved for everybody to have a look at in the Australian archives.

And so it's I tend to agree with Harry's analysis. Of course, it doesn't get into anything to do with Roswell. It doesn't refer to anything about crash UFOs. It does refer to a crash program, but that crash program is basically military speak to get our our stuff together and start focusing at it in a rapid way, that it was an important problem. And that's the key importance of Turner's document that he was, I think, fairly well focused. He had, I suppose, the advantage of having already examined it in detail back in 1954 and writing an official report which wasn't again well received. So Harry had a lot of time, a lot of difficulty trying to get traction with the Australian government and department of defence to really focus on it. He spent a lot of time even in his role in nuclear science doing UFO work. As I said before, Mathams would would just say, you know, as long as you got the job done, the nuclear science part of it, but he he didn't draw a connection in any significant way other than the fact that he he did confirm to me that yes, there were reports that he had looked at. He didn't personally have any UFO sightings on site. Associates of his did like Rhys Dalton Morgan's grandfather Tom Dalton Morgan… Harry knew him. He knew Richard Durance. So there were a lot of people and and there was also a lot of sightings that had occurred at Woomera and a few at Maralinga as well.

So, I mean for me when I read this document from Harry Turner … but it it kind of comes across that … it was less of a definitive intelligence assessment of US capabilities and more of an internal bureaucratic pitch to try and highlight what the US was doing. These are reasons why we should take this topic seriously. And obviously, you know, the last section says would be it would appear wrong for Australia to remain ignorant of the true situation. We lack an intelligence viewpoint that can assess the nature and possible consequences of the problem. a scientific viewpoint that could derive scientifically valid data from the reports and a public relations viewpoint that can honestly satisfy public interest to overcome these deficiencies in the Australia investigation of UFOs. It would seem that a strong case exists for the acceptance of the RAAF suggestion that another government department assume responsibility for the investigation and analysis of UFO reports. So he was leveraging that open- source intelligence that he had collected to try and pitch and strengthen the business case for there being a comprehensive UFO investigation done in an agency that was resourced and equipped to handle it. 

Even though he spent a lot of time in his role occupying a lot of interest in UFOs, he did maintain obviously the work that was what he was supposed to be doing and that was nuclear science. and he as you say he was trying to use this document to do a pitch for the reorganized defence military intelligence structure which eventually emerged with DSTO and the latter formations of various different aspects of intelligence. The late 60s and early 70s was a time of huge restructuring within military intelligence in Australia. 

And he felt that the the best fit for the flying saucer subject was probably DSTO and he happened to have the support earlier with the rapid invention team that he had the concept back in late ' 69 with people like Dr John Farrands, and Barlow and company. They were actually interested but they did not have the resources. Unfortunately, the Yanks were the ones that had the resources but Turner was highlighting particularly in those last few paragraphs that we should take a separate path. We should be more focused on the physical evidence that it was indeed a reality. He knew, I think he knew, and he more or less implied it to me when we had our discussions that that the Americans were conducting classified investigations after Blue Book had been terminated and even while Blue Book was on there were separate investigations and that obviously the UFO aspect could have inspired this focus on the anti-gravity projects and that's the implication of Harry's report and the significance of it. And so on the same day that Harry authored that report, you have this minute paper, you know, to the deputy secretary, 27th of May 1971 by Furlonger that kind of goes into … the the attitude or you know justification for what they had proposed or what Harry had proposed … the Department of Supply which would become the Defence Science Technology Organization be the ones responsible for handling the UFO problem. 

So what was Harry's involvement in obviously getting this document submitted by Furlonger to deputy secretary?

He was trying to get his superiors to present it to Furlonger. That's a draft. It never got out as a formal (thing). 

I see. Okay. So, because it does say draft submission. Yeah.

Yes. I've got copies of versions of that that are more annotated and with I think Harry's immediate boss and others and I think Furlonger notes, but somebody high up with Joint Intelligence sort of saying you know my views on this and I'm not going to sign this memo right okay so one thing that's obviously just to come back to Harry's 1971 document. 

Obviously, you have the likes of Karl Nell and Eric Weinstein and Jesse Michaels really jump on the the information … 

Yes, of course they would because it actually represents … a very well-informed summary of the situation with a hint and a few directions naming names and organizations and companies to follow the trail … You know that's the importance of the document.

So yes, they're correct in that sense.

But the part that's not right is that it wasn't an officially mandated Australian government report. It was Harry Turner's private opinion formed within his time as the director of nuclear science within the DSTI of the Intelligence Bureau, to strengthen the case for it to be to be taken seriously within Australia and get a a serious inquiry into the whole topic. 

How did Harry know the information about the research that was being conducted in the US regarding gravity and gravity, how did that information come to Harry? Was that as as a result of his time over in … Harwell or was that just open source information he was able to secure? 

Well, he told me the story of when he was at Harwell that he saw the first of the the notices going up on the Harwell classified notice board for positions, you know, indications of interest to participate in anti-gravity and he like most of the other scientists at Harwell were going, "Yeah, well, we got to get our act together on gravity first before we can really control gravity and fixate on anti-gravity."  You know, he said there was a lot of work to be done. And all he's done there is to basically highlight both public and semi sensitive classified programs. He doesn't outright reveal anything that wasn't known in the public domain. 

Yes, but you'd have to research deeply and have a good understanding of the potential programs that were in play to create this list because the list as Jesse and others have sort of highlighted (was) comprehensive these guys were focusing on the problem. These were all the key players.

 So, it's an excellent summary.

It's an excellent summary, but our own government got back into it about a decade later. So, a decade later and and reassessed the report again because it was being played around with in terms of foreign policy as well.

I think I shared with you some of those other documents.

Yes. Well, let's let's have a look at the the document 10 years later in 1981…

So, where the document that the Department of War put out where that basically ends I think … but it doesn't include the second half, which is focused on the Passport to Magonia Vallee catalogue.

That's right. Yes, Harry Harry takes that catalogue and extracts every one of the cases that he believed showed some sense of weaponry. You know, he also does all the interesting chronologies and all the rest of it I think he did a pretty good job in terms of summarizing the state of play in the United States at that time. So, but I think he was more or less arguing for our own separate path that really focused on the fact that there was a definite UFO reality.

And, you know, for people that haven't read it, it is a fascinating document. It's incredibly comprehensive like you're saying, like Harry's obviously done this in the age where there was no internet … he would have had to have done some serious leg work to compile all of this key information. So it is a very very interesting document and so that kind of brings us to if we have a look at the document which you flagged for me.

(The R.N. Hamilton FAS SIP document (Strategic & International Policy Division) January, 1981 – 1 page)

(The JIO briefing – 12 January 1981)

Oh, this is probably the last bit that's interesting. “The press cutting from People, so People magazine dated 10 December 1980 was the work of freelance journalist John Pinkney, founder of Australia's UFO Research Society. He also had a column or so in such journals as Australasian Post and the recently introduced Omega. You may recall that Omega carried a Brian Toohey article entitled Nuclear Terror, Australia's Secret Role, featuring a double page coloured photograph of Pine Gap. John Pinkney's thesis developed along with other crackpot theories in his book Alien Honeycomb paperback $39 published in June 1980 is the existence of a conspiracy between the Australian and American government, government's RAAF Defence, Pentagon, etc. for a mass cover up of unidentified flying objects. I hope the above meets your requirements.” 

So it's you know that they use the word crackpots … in this this document… You know there's this institutional stigma and one of the questions I put out, they're kind of viewing, I think, there's a sense that some are viewing this topic as certainly fringe a fringe nuisance, that you know it's does, that handicaps the ability of a serious analyst to apply a rigorous metric driven approach to UFO data because most of the data they were getting was very ad hoc and incomplete. 

But the reality was that they just didn't have the funds or the budgets to focus on subjects like flying saucers and UFOs and but there were players, and like the the person you're going to highlight the moment the guy that responds to this, that's George Barlow who I had actually interviewed myself … he said that there would have been some level of serious investigation if they had the funds to do it but basically he's saying we only had funds back in the older days. But really like Arthur Wills, he talks about Arthur Willis (and John Farrands).

The form being used was that the reporting form that was the one Harry Turner designed that form … the three-part proforma reporting form, he wanted to make the the form or the investigation that the RAAF did if they were going to be the ones to keep running the show, he wanted them to do it in a more scientific fashion than they were up to that point as comprehensively data driven as possible. In culling the forms held by RAAF, there remains a small core of reports which are competently reported and cannot be readily ascribed to astronomical objects, artificial satellite re-entry or meteorological optical phenomena. The most interesting of these are those which leave physical evidence which more frequently consist of burnt or flattened vegetation. In more affluent days, DSTO had proposed one or two flying squads equipped with magnetometers, radiation counters, etc. to try to capture some hard core evidence.

Unfortunately, staff ceilings and financial restrictions intervened and that situation still persists … So that's what kind of killed any serious effort to get something up and running. Financial burden, lack of resources and a lack of perhaps interest.

The author is George Barlow and I spoke to him a few years later about this matter and and he pretty much confirmed what he said there.

Right. So if they had a lot more money, it may have become a real possibility.

Ross Thomas FAS SIP, which is international policy for Australia and that kind of thing, commented, "What I have established is a record of quote study studied neglect." In other words, they basically examined the subject, but they more or less ignored it because they just didn't have the money or the focus resources to be able to study the subject. He says, "What the hell do I do?" Subsequently he discussed this with Paul Dibbard … and finally left it with Ross Thomas to raise sometime within Military Space Office.

So that implied that there was the possibility if there was more funding, more resources, it may have come back into the picture again in a more focused way. But essentially given the the limited resources that the Australian government was giving to the whole military intelligence program, it was essentially not something they were going to pursue with any great enthusiasm and they'd leave it up to the Americans. That's the background to it.

Were there any other comments that you wanted to make, Bill, regarding the 1971 or 81 documents that we maybe haven't touched on?

Yes, look, essentially, given the fact that this was generated, while we've still got these kind of non-digital type rapid confirmations, you know, the modern day responses, have a big churn and they were, I think they weren't quite sensitive to the fact that maybe they were going to get subjected to FOI inquiries at a later day. And so to me it seems to be a more honest kind of kind of assessment of the subject from their point of view.

You mentioned John Farrands. 

I actually had spoken to him and I thought I wasn't going to get much of an interest. He was in retirement but he had actually had UFO files with him …  and was planning to write his own book on UFOs.  But then he said I think I'll wait until your book comes out which was later, but I'm saying to him, no, no, you write your book … but unfortunately he passed away I think about a month or so after The OZ Files came out in 1996. Sad to see … what a shame because I'm sure there would have been some valuable info that could have been if Farrands had written his book that he had thought about writing.  It would have been brilliant, a really good thing, because it was Seamus O’Farrell the Sea Fury pilot in the classic radar visual case from 1954 who used to have regular lunches with John Farrands in the canteen at the Russell offices building in Canberra, and he said (to me) basically Farrands knew it all. He knew all about the UFO problem and he wanted to pursue it. And Farrands in fact did confirm that to me. The FASSIP documents confirms that as well through George Barlow.

Rod Barton worked under Harry Turner in the nuclear science section of DSTI in the JIO. Barton authored 2 books, “The Weapons Detective” and “The Life of a Spy”, which mentioned his time with Turner. He made the astonishing claim that Harry was spending up to 90 % of his time in the nuclear science section of the DSTI/JIO studying UFOs and that even just amazed me, and I queried him and then he responds and say hi Bill, I might have been a bit harsh on the amount of time Harry spent on UFOs. Thinking back, I recall a study that he and I made on global nuclear warfare and he was totally committed to that.

Even so, if not 90%, I thought, how's that possible? And he cut it back to 70 to 80%. 

That, so it highlighted the fact that Harry was spending an awful lot of time focusing on UFOs during his time in nuclear science. 

That in itself is a really wonderful story I think, but it was interesting, but basically Harry's age at that time when his immediate boss retired he no longer had the protection of his boss who was sympathetic to Harry and went back to the old days.  Harry retired soon after that as well. So, and that was the end of Harry's UFO wars within the government department.

His tenure, right? On to enjoying the fruits of his labour.